Selfish Mama Matters

1.05 - Fighting for Happiness and Identity Amidst Competing Cultures with Anna Chen

• Anna Chen • Season 1 • Episode 5

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As a Chinese woman, growing up in France, Anna Chen navigated a journey of becoming that was full of challenge and struggle. Listen in as Anna shares her story of competing cultures and her fight to live her truth.

Anna Chen empowers women to listen to their true voice and express the fire that burns within to help them be fearlessly authentic and live a passionate life. She leverages her journey to help other Asian women make sense of similar struggles so that they feel less alone and feel empowered to become who they want to be, on their terms.

Guest: Anna Chen

Host: Tina Unrue

The identity crisis is about owning every part of me. And not only saying I'm French inside and Asian looking outside, but for me it was really reclaiming every part of myself thinking that I am French and Chinese.

Welcome to the Selfish Mama Matters Podcast with your host, and my mom, Tina Unrue. 

Tina Unrue: Anna, thank you so much for agreeing to join me on the podcast today. I'm incredibly excited to share your story and to learn more about it myself. Before we get started, would you please introduce yourself, share your pronouns and share with us how you're showing up in the world these days.

Anna Chen: Thank you, Tina, for having me. I'm so excited to be here and share my story with you. So my name is Anna and my pronoun is, um, her, she. I'm 38 years old and I live in Paris, in France. Um, how I show up in the world, I'm a life coach. I'm a life purpose coach. That was my first niche. And my second niche that I just launched, like only a few months ago, is Asian, uh, woman coach.

And I'm married and I'm a mom to a three year old son. Uh, I'm a content creator. I have a, uh, uh, Instagram account called Être femme asiatique which means being an Asian woman. And in there I share my experience, uh, as a child of immigrant, as a Chinese descendant and, uh, French person in France. And I talk about, uh, and I Asian hate, I talk about the difficulties being grown up, second generation in France, uh, talk about the relationship with my parents and all the difficulties and all the, the layers of, uh, things we never talk about.

So this is what I'm doing and how I show up. 

Tina Unrue: Wow. Thank you so much for all of that. It's, you know, I can already tell that the discussion's going to be very full, because, you shared with us some of your personal situation, a toddler at three that usually keeps a mama very busy, very active.

But it also sounds like, you know, your life is very full with the coaching and also, if we can go there, lots of maybe internal coaching and kind of processing the, the two cultures. 

Anna Chen: Yeah. 

Tina Unrue: And, and how they show up for you and the fact that you have an Instagram account that is possibly of incredible service to others, whether they have a resonance with the French culture, the Asian culture, both and either or.

So, you know, why don't we start there? 


[00:02:43] Exploring selfishness and selflessness across cultures
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I really want to focus on the stories and challenges of women when it comes around the terms of selflessness and selfishness. And one of the things that struck me with your, uh, story was the difference between cultures that you shared with me that was really new for me to learn.

Tina Unrue: So why don't you share with us how you grew up as a kid and what, you know, what the terms, selfish and selflessness, you know, what those terms look like in the Chinese culture versus how you tried to reconcile them in the French culture. 

Anna Chen: Um, actually when you give me the topic of this, uh, episode and you talked about Selfish Mama and there's something that resonates so much because it's something that my mom always, always told me and I was so afraid to be. I was afraid to be selfish.

Because I was raised, uh, with a constant reminder from her saying like, you're not supposed to think about yourself. Thinking about yourself is selfish. And, uh, I was raised with the belief that I have to think about other people, uh, other people's needs, my parents, uh, my grandparents, my family needs, and not thinking about myself.

And this is how I was raised because the value, it's, um, the value of my family. And in Chinese culture a lot, it's the family value. It's about what other people think you, it's what people think about you, what you're doing. And so the culture is really turned around. The losing face. Losing things face means words like, oh, how you show up in, uh, in the world is not acceptable.

Or it's, for example, , if you have a, a baby out of wedlock, this is like, oh, you totally lose face. Not only for yourself, but for your family too because it goes even deeper in the shame. You, uh, when you do something bad, you are the person who is ashamed. Mm-hmm. , but it's resonate into your family. Your mom is the mom who raised a shameful daughter.

Your grandparent is a grandparent of a shameful granddaughter. So you have to be very careful to do things, to think about others and how it resonates towards others. 

Tina Unrue: Yes. 

Anna Chen: So this is how you ha how much you need to be self, not even selfless.

Like you have to be careful and so you shouldn't be selfish and do things for yourself. 

Tina Unrue: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I can see, you know, just from the limited knowledge that I have of the Chinese culture, I can see that that's very much represented in kind of the media that I've at least consumed. So I can, I can, really understand kind of the depth of that pressure of always, you know, thinking about how your actions, would impact or look on your family. 

Anna Chen: Mm-hmm. 

Tina Unrue: And so were you born in France? 

Anna Chen: Yes, I was born in France in 1983. I like to, to say that.


[00:05:56] Growing up Chinese in France
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And so how would you describe the French culture, and how it differs then from the Chinese culture that was, shared from your mom? What challenges were represented there? What differences did you have to reconcile? 

I, I totally hear your question. Before, um, answering that question just to, um, because it took me a lot of years and, uh, Stepping back to understand my, my cultural dynamic.

Anna Chen: Because for me it was just a truth. Whatever I did was could be criticized or could be bad. And it was, you know, internalized um, rules and it kind of like, your body almost reacted, oh, this is bad, this is good, and all that. And only now that I really take a real step back on understanding how the dyna the dynamic works, uh, and how it is re presenting in the movies.

I just want to give you an example, something that is really screaming to me. And when I saw its, oh, this is how it works in my culture, because even me, since I bathing it 360, you, it's really hard to put the finger in it. It's, oh, that's why I felt that way. 

Tina Unrue: Mm. 


[00:07:09] Turning Red movie offers insights
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Anna Chen: Uh, can I give you this example that I saw in a very well represented, and it was very subtle, but like when you are in the culture you are like, oh. Uh, it's from the movie, uh, called Turning Red. You know the latest Pixar movie? 

Tina Unrue: Yes. 

Anna Chen: Have you seen it? 

Tina Unrue: Yes. 

Anna Chen: So it's one scene that was, I don't know, it's not one the most, uh, um, important scene, but when I saw it, I, it really pinpointed something very interesting to me. It's, uh, I hope I'm not spoiling too much for those who want to see it, but it's okay.

Tina Unrue: Yeah. 

Anna Chen: Uh, it's when May, may, the, the girl who will transform into panda 

Tina Unrue: mm-hmm. 

Anna Chen: at the end of the ceremony, who was supposed to separate her from the panda. She's like, I'm keeping it. I'm not separating it, taking from it, and I'm going to the concert. That's, that's what she was saying. And there was a grandma and the aunt there, and the mom.

And the mom. She was like, oh, can she do this to me? And she was saying that, and the grandma, she rushed to the mom. She didn't even call the her granddaughter. She didn't say like, how can you do this? Like, oh, how can you be so, so selfish? She didn't say that. She just said that. She said to her own daughter, so the mother of Mai Mei, how can you let her do that?

Mm-hmm. , she, she doesn't blame her daughter. She blames her own daughter. Uh, the granddaughter. She blames her own daughter of like not controlling enough her own child. Yeah. Kind of like, like she's wrong because she was not able to control. So this just that like your daughter is bringing shame into the family and you are responsible.

That's why she's saying the grandma. 

Tina Unrue: Mm-hmm. 

Anna Chen: And so this is how ingrained it is that we have to think about others and how all actions impact others. And it goes that far. 

Tina Unrue: Yes. 

Anna Chen: So when I see that, it resonates for me so much as like, oh, this is how much it is expected that people control us. Our parents are supposed to control us, and our action is impact others.

That's why I need it, because it goes so deep in just one sentence, just like resonate into my face. It's like, oh, this is how my culture functions. 

Tina Unrue: Isn't that fascinating? 

Anna Chen: It is. 

Tina Unrue: You know, that you saw it represented in a way that resonated with you so deeply 

Anna Chen: Yes. 

Tina Unrue: That you were able to kind of piece together something maybe that hadn't been as clear before or at at least it was a another representation of, of something you already knew.

Anna Chen: It was so well done. 

Tina Unrue: Yeah. 

Anna Chen: Because like if it was done, let's say by a white person, they would've never made put those, um, words into the grandma saying that to the mom because it's not that kind of dynamic that exists in the French culture. It just doesn't exist. But in Chinese culture, yes. Kind of like you are supposed to.

Uh, and whatever your children does, it has a reflect on you. And whatever your grandchildren does has an . It's everything is like, it's almost uh, um, directly impacts you, but it's not supposed to be like this. But that's why when the rules are set in this way, how much you have to tell your, your kid, be careful what you're doing, what you do can bring shame to me.

Tina Unrue: Yeah. 

Anna Chen: And it impacts me and the whole family and the whole culture, everything. 


[00:10:38] Trying to make sense of competing cultures
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Tina Unrue: Yeah. So am I understanding correctly that that's the messaging that you were getting from your mom, but yet the environment that you were growing up in, kind of outside your home, was very different? 

Anna Chen: It was very different. I could see a real big difference between, only now because I'm an adult and I really step back and I understand, yeah.

Like when I go at home or I am surrounded by my family or Chinese people, I was in another country almost like with the rules that were different expectation values. Everything was different. And when I close the door and I go out and I go to school, it's a French world. And the big difference is, um, I go at home, I speak Chinese.

I'm supposed to, um, I don't want to say respect the elders, but like there's um, uh, how you behave. And according to, um, my culture is like my parents, they know better according to them. Of course, according to them, we've called the to the culture. They know, and that's why they always tell you what to do.

And you are not supposed to question. If I question her, if I just talk for her. It's like talking back is very rude. It's like, how can you, how do you dare talking back? How do you dare uh, just having a voice? Anything is not accepted. Or in France, in French culture, it is more about how you accomplish yourself, how you are free, how you, it's about freedom.

And I have the very, very, um, uh, good example for that just for Covid. In China is so easy and in Chinese culture it's just so easy for everybody just to put on a mask to protect yourself and protect every everyone else. Yeah because like everybody's very conscious that we are very interconnected. 

Tina Unrue: Yeah.

Anna Chen: When in France, the culture is more like, I could not breathe. Oh. Oh, it's annoying. Uh, people think more about their themself, so they're more self ish. 

Tina Unrue: Yes. 

Anna Chen: In that case it's like, oh, it's about my own wellbeing. I don't wanna wear a mask when I'm not sick. Or, or protecting others like. When in Chinese culture we have so, such a big family.

Like we live for a lot of us, we have our parents. I don't live with my parents with a lot of family. We are very close knit and we live very close to each other. And like if they don't see their family, it's very hard for them. When in French culture it is much more, people are much more spread out. Like if they see their parents or grandparents, like not that often in a year.

Tina Unrue: Wow. You are explaining the context within which you grew up. That just made me think of something. So please tell me if this is of course like an accurate, um, capturing of, of it. And I know you didn't know it at the time, but in reflection right, you can kind of see it represented as the two complete opposite dichotomies, right?

Like. Chinese culture is very much about the connection that we have to our history, to our family, to our lineage, and to everyone else, so that there is so little focus on ourselves that even the slightest thought of yourself is deemed inappropriate. But yet in France it is the complete opposite side of that.

You know, very much thinking of self and kind of lacking, if you will, the interconnectedness of all of us. And I find that really fascinating because you know, as a coach you, you know that we support people a lot in dealing with the kind of either or thinking, you know, labeling things. And this is feeling very much like either or, you know, you're either selfish or you're either selfless, you know?

And how fascinating it is that you, and I'm sure the struggle was real and, and maybe it still is, but it was almost like you had to figure out how to make sense of these seemingly very competing ideals. And you were like, where do I fit? I don't understand where, how I'm supposed to make both of these fit.

Where's the both and here you know? How can I kind of be selfish and selfless at the same time and make this work? So, you know, does that even make sense to you? And, and when did that kind of come to a head for you?

It makes total sense is that's why for me it was such a struggle, uh, you know, one being on the other opposite of the spectrum.



Anna Chen: Like, uh, making anything for me was selfish. 




[00:15:35] Making a case for love
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Anna Chen: Uh, thinking about it's, there was on so many levels. I feel like it was one opposite to the other. It was really, um, for example, uh, I will give personal example because like speaking in general is really hard, that I'm always scared like I'm wrong. But it's more like on, on my level.

I just wanted to, uh, choose my husband. For example, in my, uh, culture, you're supposed to, uh, choose somebody. In the very narrow , uh, um, condition that he has to be Chinese, has to be, uh, like what my parents think is deem acceptable. Like he has to be come from a good family, and the family has to give the, uh, say that if he's good or not.

Like my parents, my grandparents, my uncles has to say like, oh, this is a good guy. Okay. And for me, I just wanted to choose some, like, I love, and I didn't have to choose from a, a very narrow pool of only Chinese, uh, immigrant children, you know? Yeah. But for them it was very important. And just me having this yearning inside of me of just loving my husband.

It was going against the, the traditions and the tradition tell me that you have to think about others. My mom was telling me like, you're not getting married for yourself. Because like, it just, we were arguing, uh, what kind of food we were about to serve in my, my wedding. And she said, you're not doing that for yourself. It's for your guests. You're not even going to eat. 

Tina Unrue: Mm-hmm. 

Anna Chen: And I'm like, no, it's my wedding. It's how about what I want? And for her, it's not about my happiness. If I want to do something that I like, it's about to make all the people's expectation happy. 



Anna Chen: It's about like, you have to do something that people think you are a good person or you do a good wedding or, and it's not about you.

And like in my head I was like, how can I guess about what people like, and it's, and it always comes back in a family in the tradition about like what is good or what is bad, but it's something very. Uh, you, you don't know what is good or what is bad. It's ever, ever evolving. One day it's something good and people appreciate it, and the other day people don't appreciate it and you just don't know.

And like you do this kind of cultural or, uh, for buying, you just don't even know. And for me, it was so hard to navigate through that and it, I guess it was easier for me to, uh, try to make myself happy, but it was seen extremely selfish from my mom perspective or my family's perspective. 

Tina Unrue: Yeah. 

Anna Chen: I hope you understand that my explanation

Tina Unrue: Yeah, I do. And I appreciate the, the example because I think so many people can resonate with that. Whether they experience the same because their culture is either Chinese or another culture that has very similar kind of restrictions and expectations. Um, or if you're like me, you know, as you were explaining your situation, I was thinking about my wedding and how wonderful it was that nobody ever told me who I had to marry. You know, I didn't have to worry about getting permission. And never once did anybody tell me what I should serve at my wedding or do at my wedding. Like it was, it was just completely my choice, you know?

So I love that, that example. Thank you.


[00:19:01] Fighting for your own happiness
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Anna Chen: In movies, people tell you like, do things to make yourself happy. You see that in a western con, uh, movie and, uh, and how it lands on me now that I'm conscious and like my mom will never tell me that. It's not about making me happy. 



Anna Chen: It's about what you have to do that brings pride but not about me being happy about the things that I do. So it's very different. And now I can hear it in the, it's a very, uh, culturally, um, acceptable in a western country to, to be happy yourself and people are happy for you. If you are happy. My mom is like, I want you to be happy.

She will never say that. Hmm. And it's very sad too, when I say that to a white person, it's like, really? You know? But when you, you come from a Asian, uh, family or Chinese family, it's about making your parent happy. It's about doing the right thing, not bringing shame, not bringing anything, uh, that they have to kind of like tilt their head down when you lose your faces about that.

So, you know, it definitely sounds like the French culture gave you maybe this desire to kind of push the boundaries, if you will, against the Chinese cultural expectations that were being communicated and, and set for you.

Tina Unrue: I, I really wanna know. It sounds like you married for love. You did. Okay. Congratulations. Um, and it sounds like you created a wedding that, that met your expectations, that it was a representation of things that you enjoyed 

Anna Chen: Yeah. 

Tina Unrue: And things that you wanted to kind of express and share 

Anna Chen: Yes.

Tina Unrue: With the, those who attended 

Anna Chen: mm-hmm. 

Tina Unrue: is that fair to say? 

Anna Chen: Yeah. 

Tina Unrue: So, you were really pushing the boundaries then of, you know, the Chinese culture and trying to kind of infuse authenticity, making space for yourself to be who you are. 

Anna Chen: Mm-hmm. 


[00:21:06] Reflections on the journey thus far to wholeness
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How's it going now, you know, are you, are you excited that you made space for yourself?Does your mom recognize any of those challenges as positive? Is there still, great discord from a cultural perspective? Help us understand how it is right now for you and for your family.

Anna Chen: I like how you, you sound so excited about the. Um, yeah. Yeah. I really like it, but it's going through it, it was nothing exciting. 

Tina Unrue: I bet, I bet 

Anna Chen: I was the black sheep of the family. I was labeled as the rebel. I, um, in my family, um, in my, I'm mainly talking about my mom's family because like, uh, my father's family, they're Muslim in China, so they didn't try to, uh, prevent me from doing anything.

It's more like my mom has a very strong, um, educational structure that she wants me to follow. She has five brothers and sisters and they have like the, um, all two of one or two, um, daughters or son. And so I was compared a lot according to them, and I was the fourth grandchildren. So, and um, I think, yeah, if I count well, but we're 11 in total, so we were compared a lot and we were expected a lot to follow the rules.

You know, marry a Chinese guy. Having, um, how do you say, uh, um, a store like the others and follow the family rules. And me, when you all the thing you described that is so ex exciting, infusing more of the French culture. This is how you label it. But how I would call that is more like living my true identity.

Yes. I'm not only Chinese, I am French as well because I grew up in a French education, reading French book, going to French school. And I realized when I was teenager, like even though my mom was telling me like, look at yourself, look at your face, your eyes, your small eyes, your small nose, your skin, and your Chinese.

Don't try to think that you're French. So she was telling me that all the time cuz she could see that I was yearning to be more independent, be more like a French girl going to a parties that I was invited to. And she was telling me, you are not French. But no, I was French as well. I was not only Chinese and I didn't have to only follow, follow Chinese rules and how she see that my life should be, and how my cousin like kind of like accept to live in those kind of rules.

And for me it was not infusing. It's just like living my truth. My truth is like I'm really, I, I don't want to say 50 50. I'm like, I'm Chinese. Now that I'm at 38, I can, I want to say I'm a hundred percent Chinese, a hundred percent French, but it was not a very smooth ride because the identity crisis was real, like struggling to kind of prove that I was French.

We have this, um, The Asian culture, uh, French, uh, Asian, uh, western children of immigrants. We have this expression called bananas. We were like, inside, were white and outside were yellow. And I thought I was a banana. And that was only one step into the identity crisis thinking like, look at me. I'm actually, I'm French and I only looked Asian, but I, this is was only a one step of the way.

And the identity crisis is about owning every part of me. And not only saying I'm French inside and Asian looking outside, but for me it was really reclaiming every part of myself thinking that I am French and Chinese. And so this is the real struggle is it was not a smooth ride. It was not just opening their perspective.

So I'm laughing because like you could see that, oh, it's so cool, but it was so hard to, um, claim each bit of freedom. Each bit of like, I want to marry the man I love. And my mom was like, who cares about love? Because it doesn't, in a Chinese culture, it is not about marrying for love. It's about like, I think it's not even Chinese culture, but, uh, because we are children immigrant, we, uh, we have to survive in a country where they are not accepted, whether, don't speak the language where they come here because it was very difficult financially in China to stay. And for me, my mom always told me, you have to marry. You have somebody who's gonna work, somebody who's gonna have a safe life for you and for her, when I tell her I don't wanna marry for love, she was like, no, no. So that, that, uh, fighting for every bit of, uh, part of me that for her, that Bris French culture, maybe French culture, something that is not Chinese, it was very hard for me.

It was a struggle. 

Tina Unrue: I bet, I bet. 

Anna Chen: Yeah. 

Tina Unrue: And if no one else has told you, I want to tell you that I am incredibly inspired by your story and quite frankly, 

I, I, I can't even imagine honestly, having to go through that. It sounds so intense to have, to wade through all of the identity challenges that you were trying to kind of meld and merge together and piece apart, and just figure out how to create a whole from these two very seemingly competing cultures.

Tina Unrue: And so again, if no one's told you it's, we have a term here, I hope you don't find it offensive. But here it's, it's a good word. And we call it badass. Oh, of course. Okay, good. It is incredibly badass to be able to stand up for what you thought was a true representation of yourself, of what made sense to you.

Anna Chen: Thank you. 

Tina Unrue: What feels good, right? 

Anna Chen: Mm-hmm.

Tina Unrue: And not only does that give you space to be Anna, however you want to define yourself. The good from each of the cultures, the things that you feel represent you, but then it has a positive impact on, your marriage and your child rearing because you've been through so much and you've given it so much thought and really raised your level of consciousness so that now you get to pass it on in whatever way you want to your child.

And that's just, that is life changing. That is groundbreaking and cycle breaking. So if no one's told you it's badass, and I at least am honored to be able to talk to you and share your story with other people. 


[00:27:58] Using her story to help others
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Tina Unrue: You obviously mentioned Asian hate, which unfortunately I know is a necessary topic. I wish it weren't, but I, I recognize that it is. Tell us a bit about how you help your clients with different struggles that they're experiencing these days.

Anna Chen: Mm-hmm. So for me, for my account and with my clients as a coach for Asian woman, I first in the account. The main work I'm doing that the thing that my own coach told me. And because it's very hard on a daily basis to, uh, what I do, what I do is like, I share my own experience as an Asian woman who grew up in France and I peel every layer of struggle and difficulty, I went through, through all these years on every aspects, the relationship for my parents with the culture, with the fact, for example, that a lot of us, we don't speak well or we cannot communicate with our own parents because, uh, we cannot speak well enough Chinese, Korean, uh, or Japanese because we were told that, uh, that if we speak, uh, a different language at home, we cannot, uh, learn well French, when we were a toddler.

So a lot of us, we cannot even talk to our own parents. And we, I talk about things like. For us, like we've all been through, but we never talk about or make it a topic like for example, the Asian hate that in the street you can walk in the street and people just scream out Nǐ hǎo means like a hello in Chinese. And, and just facing that and all these feelings that come through you and how you, uh, you can be totally angry or you can be freeze and you don't know how to answer or you can always feel othered.

For me, this is a big part of my work and people when they read me, they all tell me every year people, when they write in my DM and they say like, thank you for talking about that. I feel less alone. just because it was never a topic and nobody just took the place. And, uh, talk about our, our struggles. It's easier to say like, oh, we Asian, we like to eat food.

Or we, uh, I don't know, uh, we need more representation like claiming and say that, but I like to put the words on our suffering. Big, small. And all the thing we never talked about and like what keep us awake at night. And we grew up with this, with this burden and struggle and the fact that we cannot even just, like for me, one thing, for example, I said I didn't want to marry a Chinese guy, not because I don't like Chinese, uh, guys, just because how much, it was so heavy on my shoulder culturally speaking, because I didn't know the traditions.

I didn't know, um, I was afraid first because my mom was already overbearing. And if I have to have a overbearing mother-in-law that has the same expectation, even more of a Chinese, uh, daughter-in-law, I, I was so scared of that. Or it was already super hard for me to meet my, my mom, my own mom expectation, meet my, um, my, in-laws expectation was something that I couldn't bear.

And it was a struggle for me because like, I cannot marry a Chinese guy because it would be too much for me. That's part of the cultural part because I was, I didn't know the Chinese culture well enough, and I was so scared to be criticized. I'm not being a good wife, good daughter-in-law, a good mother of a future Chinese boy or girl. I was, and what I do as well is helping them to, um, my, my client to step up, to discover their own power, to, uh, just to help them navigate through all these difficulties.

And because it's so easy, you know to, uh, to feel the heaviness of all struggles. And when you are always seen as a second class citizen when there's this, what they call the bamboo ceiling for the woman, there's glass ceiling in general, when the people don't see, see you as a managing partner or people don't give you a good, um, salary just because you're a woman.

But for us Asian people is like, oh, this person will never complain. It's a good, uh, uh, like small hands to works. But no, I don't see them as a manager. So they see it as a, for example, bamboo ceiling, like they don't see as a important power player. Mm-hmm. . And it's about breaking all these, um, um, how people see us this microaggression as well, and how we really don't have to, uh, to bear that alone and talk about it and process it with me as a, as their coach.

Tina Unrue: I. I'm trying to keep my emotions together. I am so glad that we have had this discussion. I am not only happy to be connected with you. I hope that we remain connected, but even if our lives get busy and we don't stay connected, I am so thankful that there are people like you in the world. People, I'm trying to keep my emotions together.

Sorry.

Anna Chen: Let me send you a virtual hug. 

Tina Unrue: Thank you. I should be doing that for you. 

Anna Chen: I'm, I'm used to it. Don't worry.

Tina Unrue: Honestly, I'm feeling the weight of emotion right now, quite honestly, of so many things. Number one, gratitude for my own life. Because no matter how difficult or challenging things have been for me in my own life, and I'm not saying that they aren't still significant, but it sometimes can take on a different context when we hear someone else's story. And I just can't imagine how difficult it was to try to reconcile as a child, as a child, two different cultures, and having really do it on your own and all the struggle that comes with that. The difficulty of challenging and letting go of Chinese expectations so that you could meld the world that felt right and true for you. And we've all heard the term, your mess is your message or something like that. , And you grow through what you go through.

The fact that you are brave enough to share your story here and brave enough to be able to share your story with other Asian women is so incredibly empowering. Because not only then does it give you the comfort in knowing that other people are struggling with what you have also been through, at least to some extent. But you're also doing it in turn for them, and you're starting to give space for people to normalize these difficult conversations and conversations that historically may have been kept in the dark.

Anna Chen: Mm-hmm. 

Tina Unrue: for shame. 

Anna Chen: Yeah. 

Tina Unrue: The fear of shame. 


[00:35:38] Seeking belonging
---

Anna Chen: That's what I realize. It's really about, uh, daring to speak up. and like realize that every single message people send me as a thank you, and I'm so thankful that everybody, they're just, there's, I guess even more that those who say it in a black and white thank you for saying that.

I feel less alone. And there's those who read it than impacts them in a way is just how much we kept everything for ourself, how much we grow through that alone. And when you said go through that when you are a kid, and it's so true because since I was a toddler, when I went to a kindergarten, I was aware that people were like, designate me as the Chinese girl.

And I kind of like from a very, very, very young age, I was looking for my own country. A kid should never even have to think about that. I was age seven the first time I went to China and I and my parents, they were going back to their country and I felt like, oh, I'm gonna back to go back to my country because everybody saw me as a Chinese girl.

And then my, my discontentment almost, and disappointment when I arrived in China and people say, oh, you are the French girl. And I'm like, what? And I felt like, oh my God, I don't have a country at age seven. You don't even have to think about that at age seven. Age seven. It's about watching cartoons and having fun and no, very deep and uh, adult topic was going through my head because I was in between two cultures.

I was seen through the eyes of those who see the race and the armor. I don't belong. And that's the thing that was going on. 

Tina Unrue: That's incredible because I, I take notes as I am doing these podcast recordings and I literally just wrote down the word belonging. Yeah. Before you actually edited or Right. At the same time.

And that is such an innate desire for us all is to belong. And the struggle that you had to figure out where you belonged was just incredible. And 

Anna Chen: It's such a big topic. 

Tina Unrue: It is. It is. And you know, it makes me think of the fact that when we feel like we belong to ourselves is when we possibly can find the spaces that we belong external to us.

Whether it's in relationship, whether it's in a culture, whether it's in just an experience. When we feel like we don't have to belong externally because we belong to ourselves, I think it just gives us the freedom to figure out where we want to belong, outside of us. Mm-hmm. . And I think that's just such a powerful message.

So thank you for sharing your story. Thank you for enlightening us. Thank you for doing the work that you do in the world. Thank you for your courage to do this work. I know that it wasn't easy as a kid. I'm sure it still isn't. And the work is, it's, I don't think it really ever gets any easier. And it still sounds like there's some struggle in the relationship with your family.

But I do hope that you, despite it, have a great sense of kind of inner connectedness. I don't wanna say inner peace, but at least an interconnectedness. You know, you mentioned earlier in the podcast like just kind of bridging the different aspects of yourself together and kind of making room for them.


[00:39:36] Connecting the dots
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Tina Unrue: Does it feel like through this process you feel like a sense of wholeness? Or is it something you still struggle with? 

Anna Chen: Actually, it's, uh, a big path. And only now, now that I am able to bridge everything that I am stepping back and I'm seeing almost the whole map or the whole, like, okay, I had to go through that.

Like when I was a kid, I was a label as the Chinese girl. When I was a teenager, that was a crisis. And, uh, age 20, I kind of pushed away my, uh, Chinese culture and I wanted to be, claim I reclaim myself as banana or, and then after like realizing, oh, that's a problem. I'm not supposed to push away my Chinese culture, you know?

And then only now that now I'm a coach, now I have this, uh, Instagram account. Now I'm speaking up and like sharing all my struggles and like everything. It's like, uh, you know, a Steve Jobs was saying like, you can only see the dots once you, it's in the past, you know, and you can connect them. And I'm like, oh, this is what I had to go through.

And my story, all my struggles, even though they were difficult, then you, I don't want to celebrate struggles and I only understand that it's not about the struggle itself, it's about how you show up facing the struggle, how you decide like that doesn't define me and I'm fighting and I'm like doing this, this how I showed up facing all of them that I am where I am today. And I'm so proud, and I don't like to say that I'm proud, but like this is really where I'm the most proud that I decide to be a life coach for Asian woman. And something that was in, um, in the egg and in creation since I'm age 20, when I left my parents' house and I'm like, I'm gonna decide for myself what I want to do and who I am. And I, instead of them telling me who I should be. Me, I'm gonna step up, I'm gonna think about myself because they are not fighting for me. My battle, my battle comes from me and I have to do my own life. And I know I will want to do that for other Asian women as well. This is what I'm doing right now. And like seeing, you know, the stairs, once you're stepping, like, I wouldn't say at the end, the end of the stairs, but like when you're like, look down, like, ooh, this is what I've done.

And that was like 18 years ago. And I've gone through that, and I'm like, okay, everything has value. Even if it's doesn't, it's not clear. Everything is hard and now it's still hard. Um, but I'm happy that I connected those dots and I'm happy that, uh, now I have words and I have a deeper understanding and I am able to, to pick myself up to, uh, help others as well on their journey and maybe help them connect their dots and, and everything brought me a teaching.

That's where I am today. 

Tina Unrue: I love that. I think that there was something that you couldn't articulate, something deep within you that helped you pursue the connection of all these different aspects or pieces and parts of your identity together. And how blessed we are that you have done this work again, that you have shared your story here and that you support others in trying to connect their dots as well.

So I'm super grateful for you for taking the time to be on the podcast and share your story. Um, um, last question. What is mattering most to you in this season of life?

Anna Chen: After everything we said, I think it's about understanding where I came from, looking at those terrors and taking all the learnings and kind of like, instead of being the victim of, uh, circumstances and not like, oh my God, it was horrible, or blah, blah, blah. I should have, I preferred. And, uh, instead of looking through those kind of eyes, it's like, okay, I learned that.

That's why I went through that and I needed to experience this or that. And today I can, with that learning, I can, it's kind of like it's in my tool belt, you know? And with that, I'm really grateful for that and revisiting it, taking all the learnings through all my identity parts, my Asian, my Chinese part, my French part, being a children of immigrant, being a Chinese woman because a lot of struggle come from that, well as well.

And sharing every bits of those experience. And I remember one of my other coach, many coach, she told me like, what would be the 50 little life experience you want to share with your audience? And I'm like, why would she ask me that? But actually this is what I'm doing right now. And all this is like kinda the thing that didn't feel it mattered before. And now I'm like, okay. I think the last thing I wrote about it, I, I, I'm sure you don't even know about it. Like we as Asian women, we have this like, um, uh, they call it double eyelid and it defines your how beautiful you are. And like, I just wrote the piece and yesterday, like even being an Asian woman is having or not having double eyelid and my struggle with that.

Why it's so important, why, why it's so important to have some representation of people who does, people who don't have double eyelid and who are beautiful because like, we don't have it. It's just like, uh, um, lottery and it shouldn't be important. Important. And when other people in other races, we don't see it.

For us it's, it's a world like, oh, you don't have a double eyelid. Oh, you didn't have, and like giving importance and value to every bit of experience that kind of like stays stuck in ourself as a blocked emotion. That's what I want to do because like if fight for me was not comfortable with that or I struggle, I guess other people like me who've been through a similar path, they might have struggled with it.

And for me it's important to share it and talk about it and be the voice of for those struggles. 

Tina Unrue: So beautifully said. So it sounds like what's mattering most to you right now is still continuing to connect the dots. 

Anna Chen: Yeah. 

Tina Unrue: And connect it with and for others. 

Anna Chen: Yes, exactly. 

Tina Unrue: So I love that. I love that. So, How can people find you if they want to reach out and talk more?

I have my website, uh, annachen.Fr, a n n a c h e n dot fr. It's in French. And there's the English version.co. And I have my Instagram account etrefemmeasiatique in French mean, it means being Asian woman.Awesome. Well, we will include all of your links and ways to connect with you in the show notes. Of course.

And again, I'm just incredibly grateful that you've shared your message today and, um, I look forward to, to staying connected. So thank you so much. 

Anna Chen: I'm so happy that you have me in your podcast, and I'm so happy that we talked about the topics we did, and to have the, the space to be able to share my voice and so other people can reach me and find me that way as well.

Thank you so much.

Tina Unrue: My talk with Anna was just fascinating. I found out so much about the French and Chinese cultures that I didn't know about before. We had recently seen the Turning Red movie right before this podcast recording. I found that movie insightful, and I also felt like it was such a gift for Anna to be able to use it as a reference point in our discussion. 

And I think that that speaks to the importance of media and sharing our stories and having different voices represented in all the media that we consume. 

Anna mentioned that the movie was insightful for her. It helped illuminate something that she couldn't see before about her own life, about her own culture. So I hope that we can all really appreciate diversity in our lives and in media, because it just helps us to connect with one another. 

And speaking of connection, Anna was just so generous with her story and her struggle. She can now look back and reflect on all that she's been through and harness all of that struggle to be able to help other Asian women through their own struggle. I was profoundly grateful for this discussion.

I got emotional during the interview with Anna because the struggle of her story was so profound that it inevitably made me reflect on my own life and you know how I might have responded had I had to experience the same or similar struggle. And we all have our own depth of struggle and pain. And so it's not to rank severity. Um, you know, Brené Brown is very famous for saying that. That's one of the things that we as humans should stop doing is ranking our suffering. So I want to acknowledge that my own suffering was hard. But my heart just ached for Anna's depth of pain and struggle. And just in that moment, it was a bit overwhelming for me. And so thank you for your patience as I had to navigate that. I could have edited it out, but I didn't want to. I wanted you all to be as present as possible to the discussion as it happened. Um, And it was just really a heavy moment for me to, just even remotely, try to process some of the difficulty that Anna went through. And so again, I'm just incredibly grateful for the discussion and for people willing to share their stories and Anna's was just one of the ones that touched me so deeply and opened my eyes so much, and, and I believe that's what we're here for. 

Tina Unrue: I believe we are here to connect with ourselves and be incredibly present to our journey. And while that is the quote unquote selfish part of my business and this podcast, selfishness is truly a gateway for connection to ourselves and to others. With that, if you want to connect with Anna, I highly encourage you do so. I have no doubt. That she would love to be able to hear from you and hear your feedback about what you you learned or took away from our discussion. 

As always, I will make sure that her information is in the show notes so that you can connect with her directly. And of course, I would love to hear what your thoughts were as well. 

If you enjoyed this episode, I would be deeply honored if you would leave us a review, share the podcast, rate the podcast just so that other mamas who might need to hear this message can find it and maybe get the same benefit that you did. Thank you all for being here. Thank you for daring to be selfish, and we hope to see you next time. 

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Tina Unrue

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